Casual (occasional) water

[DonLilley]

I would like to see the def of CW to include only water that is visible before a players stance is taken. Are ther any complications that this might cause?
Don

[DavidHayes]

Don, I don't see any complications in making that change. I think, however, that spongy turf (i.e., when the Temporary Water would appear only after the player has taken his stance) has a similar negative effect on play as water that is visible both before and after the stance is taken.

In your view, what is gained by making your suggested change? Is the rule more readily understood, easier to apply, more consistent from player to player (of differing body mass)?

Thanks for your comments.

[DonLilley]

(07-31-2013 03:49 PM)DavidHayes Wrote:  Don, I don't see any complications in making that change. I think, however, that spongy turf (i.e., when the Temporary Water would appear only after the player has taken his stance) has a similar negative effect on play as water that is visible both before and after the stance is taken.

In your view, what is gained by making your suggested change? Is the rule more readily understood, easier to apply, more consistent from player to player (of differing body mass)?

Thanks for your comments.

David, there seems to be a problem with your site settings with regards to replying to a post (tech issue).
As regards to CW. I beieve that CW that only becomes apparrent after the stance is really not a problem. I could refer you to some disscussions on other web sites to show the comlexities of such, (including my web site). I won't go further at tis point untill the reply problem is sorted out, as I don't know if this message will get posted.
Don

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(07-31-2013 04:02 PM)DonLilley Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:49 PM)DavidHayes Wrote:  Don, I don't see any complications in making that change. I think, however, that spongy turf (i.e., when the Temporary Water would appear only after the player has taken his stance) has a similar negative effect on play as water that is visible both before and after the stance is taken.

In your view, what is gained by making your suggested change? Is the rule more readily understood, easier to apply, more consistent from player to player (of differing body mass)?

Thanks for your comments.

David, there seems to be a problem with your site settings with regards to replying to a post (tech issue).
As regards to CW. I beieve that CW that only becomes apparrent after the stance is really not a problem. I could refer you to some disscussions on other web sites to show the comlexities of such, (including my web site). I won't go further at tis point untill the reply problem is sorted out, as I don't know if this message will get posted.

David, it seems that when "reply" is clicked the quote box appears with all previous posts. This gets in the way of just posting a reply.
In any case The CW debate is a pet hate of mine as can be seen from one debate in particular. See http://golfrules.freeforums.org/casual-water-t1924.html

[El Gringo]

(07-31-2013 04:02 PM)DonLilley Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:49 PM)DavidHayes Wrote:  Don, I don't see any complications in making that change. I think, however, that spongy turf (i.e., when the Temporary Water would appear only after the player has taken his stance) has a similar negative effect on play as water that is visible both before and after the stance is taken.

In your view, what is gained by making your suggested change? Is the rule more readily understood, easier to apply, more consistent from player to player (of differing body mass)?

Thanks for your comments.

David, there seems to be a problem with your site settings with regards to replying to a post (tech issue).
As regards to CW. I beieve that CW that only becomes apparrent after the stance is really not a problem. I could refer you to some disscussions on other web sites to show the comlexities of such, (including my web site). I won't go further at tis point untill the reply problem is sorted out, as I don't know if this message will get posted.
Don

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(07-31-2013 04:02 PM)DonLilley Wrote:  

(07-31-2013 03:49 PM)DavidHayes Wrote:  Don, I don't see any complications in making that change. I think, however, that spongy turf (i.e., when the Temporary Water would appear only after the player has taken his stance) has a similar negative effect on play as water that is visible both before and after the stance is taken.

In your view, what is gained by making your suggested change? Is the rule more readily understood, easier to apply, more consistent from player to player (of differing body mass)?

Thanks for your comments.

David, there seems to be a problem with your site settings with regards to replying to a post (tech issue).
As regards to CW. I beieve that CW that only becomes apparrent after the stance is really not a problem. I could refer you to some disscussions on other web sites to show the comlexities of such, (including my web site). I won't go further at tis point untill the reply problem is sorted out, as I don't know if this message will get posted.

David, it seems that when "reply" is clicked the quote box appears with all previous posts. This gets in the way of just posting a reply.
In any case The CW debate is a pet hate of mine as can be seen from one debate in particular. See http://golfrules.freeforums.org/casual-water-t1924.html

While I can understand that folks may not like the idea of moving the ball, I think for casual play or even club comps, when casual water is about there is a duty of care to protect the course. I don't see much point in slashing through an area when it isn't a situation which demands strict adherence to rules. Common sense has to prevail.

Ciao

[DonLilley]

El Gringo, think you might be missunderstandng what my proposal is.
I am not advocating doing away with "occasional water" (CW), simply sugesting doing away with relief if water only becomes visible after the player has taken a stace. I don't see that such a condition warrants relief, and is a needless complication. I would advocate this even under the present rules.
Don

[aaa]

I am in agreement with Don.
IMO CW is a problem when visible for either stance or ball. The water only visible when taking a stance will not affect the lie and will have an insignificant effect on the stance. I see no reason why the player needs relief.

PS.
Don
Greetings from a now wet Yorkshire

[Toni]

As regard to casual water complications begin when a player has to determine water visibility when taking stance. In wet conditions the nearest point of relief could be "far away" from actual visible casual water and it takes too much time for player to determine the nearest point of relief correctly.
I would support no relief for casual water after taking stance.

[DonLilley]

The real complication arises when trying to distinguish whether the CW is connected to the first cw esp if there is no visible water connecting them. Is the CW that only becomes visible after the player has taken a stance the same CW, or a new CW?
I have had a bee in my bonnet for some time about this, and when I am refereeing, I always take it to be a new condition, it is simpler to do this than have a player walk round in ever increasing circles. Much simpler would be to do away with the "after taking a stance".
Don

[Toni]

(08-05-2013 06:11 AM)DonLilley Wrote:  I always take it to be a new condition, it is simpler to do this than have a player walk round in ever increasing circles. Much simpler would be to do away with the "after taking a stance".

Thanks for your reply.
If I understood you properly you allow a player to search for a stance with no visible water in some direction from already visible casual water on his choice, or I am wrong? The nearest dry stance could be somewhere else far from that place.
Why not allow player in wet conditions only to take relief on "Preferred Lies" basis in area of one club length for example?

[DonLilley]

Toni, thank for your interest. It would take some time to explain exactly, but I take the Def of CW literaly. ie if there is no visible CW conecting one area of CW with another I treat them as two seperate conditions. By definition, water that is only visible after a player has taken a stance, cannot be connected to any other area of CW. The debate at http://golfrules.freeforums.org/casual-water-t1924.html might throw further light on it.
Don